He who loves disciplines... Proverbs 13:24
"Spare the rod and spoil the child; The Lord disciplines those whom He loves," and "He who loves disciplines" are common citings used from the Bible to emphasis the need for discipline in the House of God. As we progress in our discussion about church membership I am wondering how you see church discipline fitting into the mix?
Up until this point our church membership has had a strong affinity with the doctrine and testimonies of Friends. There had to be some level of conformity pledged and demonstrated before membership was granted. It sounds to me like the majority of people want membership to be more relational in orientation. Members need to have relationship with Christ and affinity with the vision of the church but not necessarily be in compliance or have conformity with doctrine and testimonies of Friends. And yet, most of you see the value of doctrine and testimonies.
So where does church discipline fit into your membership scheme? What does church discipline look like in your model? Do we not need some level of conformity in the meetinghouse? If our vision is to love God and people unconditionally... and God equates loving with discipline... then how is it embraced and enforced if not in or through the membership process?
Thanks for your comments and for stopping by today!
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Adrian
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ReplyDeleteI see levels of relationship. In my life I have; strangers I am called to love, casual acquaintances, peripheral friends, trusted friends, and intimate allies (familial relations excluded). As we look at our institutionalized fellowship, is it not appropriate to have levels as well, (or if it helps, ‘picture’ concentric circles), with the innermost circle being the leadership. As an individual enters our collective lives and engages in relationship, (just like our individual lives) is that person not moving closer to our ‘heart’ in a progressive pattern? (You can’t go from 0-60 intimately with out the intervention of the Holy Spirit.)
ReplyDeleteWe have to look at a church of our size from a corporate mindset. As someone moves closer to the center of our corporate ‘heart’, and has greater visibility and therefore greater potential impact in the community at large, is it not appropriate that the person be more ‘like minded’? This is where our discernment and responsibility for judgment of one’s actions becomes more critical.
Very broad brushstrokes here but;
It a casual fellow traveler screws up, our response would be “our vision is to love God and people unconditionally”. If a leader screws up, surly our responsibility toward conformity of testimony is much different and frankly easier to do.
Narrowminded deleted himself... what's up with dat? Who told him about the "trash can" icon? :-)
ReplyDeleteApe man, you have me spinning in circles today. i like your analogy but who is the keeper of the circles? Who maps the system, connects the dots, and reports back to the nominating commitee for appointment or SLC for discipline/discipleship?
My friend, you must stop all this spinning! It’s not that hard, the inner circles are already in place. If a new inner circle member is needed, they enter via relationship and interview by that very inner circle. This is where the Holy Spirit works, within the relationships already established. I might add that if we view each circle as a community, it most closely resembles our heritage as Quakers. The nominating committee can bring recommendations, but the circle in question should do secondary interviews not only with the nominee, but references of that nominee.
ReplyDeleteWork the circles buddy, work the circles.
Monkey minded,
ReplyDeleteYour wisdom has promoted you to mini van status. Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye, on this the second day of April, 2009 I confir upon Monkey of Concord the esteemed title "Gorilla of Geauga County." Arise, and surf the web for your next vehicle of choice.
Your kindness and generosity is exceeded oooooonly by your personal charm, which is most dazzling.
ReplyDeleteAs people enter into relationship with one another, the closer the relationship, the permission is there (often unspoken) to speak into one's life and rebuke if necessary. For instance, I once had a very close friend that could speak things into my life honestly that others did not have the permission to do. Not because I told them they didn't have that permission, but because we did not have that level of intimacy in our relationship for them to say certain things to me that this friend could. So it is with the Church. I believe that when one enters into a relationship with Jesus AND His Church and as they grow in that relationship, there is (or should be) that ability to speak into someone's life even in a disciplinary way. Regardless of whether I'm a member or not, if I have aligned myself with a particular church, I should not be surprised if someone from within that church approaches to correct some area of my behavior that they see as being errant. So, maybe I don't adhere to one of the testimonies and I'm not in a leadership position, yet if I am engaging in something that is contrary to one of the guiding principles of that organization and more importantly, to God's Word, I should be corrected.
ReplyDeleteI would also add that the discipline, rebuke, correction (whatever you want to call it) should be motivated out of love for someone. It should not be motivated out of the mindset of "we don't do that here". That to me takes on more of the club mentality.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePat I agree that by entering into a relationship with the institution as a representative of the institution, the individual should expect that a level of responsibility is assumed for basic codes of the institution. The ‘rules of the club’ if you will. This is where levels of relationship should be defined. Just as you defined your friend as having the authority to speak into your heart, the growing member would at some point grant that same privilege to the institution’s representative.
ReplyDeleteShould the need for intersession become apparent, it should be a response from a select individual or group (such as is the custom in our fellowship), specifically the Spiritual Life Commission. We would not want just anybody running around disciplining anybody.
I’m realizing more and more that organized Christian Fellowships begin as a group of people who interpret God’s moving in their lives to be similar in fashion and passion. I’m not so sure we can (or should) remove the collective ‘self’ from the definition.
I'm Back!
ReplyDeleteListen.
It's a club, for cryin' out loud.
We're beatin' a dead horse horse, nothings going to change, people want what they want.
I enjoy the dialogue but .......
Chicken, that's what I want.
Steak, wings, good talk, good friends, Jesus. Change the subjet, please, I'm beggin' ya.
Carry on!
Lets talk about emotions next.
ReplyDeleteWow! Narrow must be off his meds today ...
ReplyDeleteLet's all group hug and sing, "I feel pretty, oh so pretty, I feel pretty, and witty and bright"
Krauss and Blog in your Eye can lead us ...
pat pope, what give anyone the right to judge but JESUS? isn't there a bible vs. that states remove your own errors first. YOU CHRISTIANS always think that someone can point out someone elses wrong doings---call it what you will..out of love---out of judgement--its all the same.
ReplyDeleteAnon, you're right. There is a Bible verse that speaks to removing the log from one's own eye before removing the splinter out of another's (Matt. 7:1-5). However, the Bible has to be taken as a whole and read in context because there are also verses that do speak about discipline and judging. Here are a few: Matthew 18:15-20; Acts 5:1-11; I Cor. 5:1-5; I Thess. 5:14. I would encourage you to read these passages and others and look at the context in which they were written and see if you can find application to present day. I think it's there. However, our present day context has to be taken into consideration as well, so that we are appropriately applying the Scripture and not just proof-texting. That is why church discipline must be done carefully and prayerfully. There is great possibility for people to be harmed in the process because we're fallen people and at any moment we can allow our own humanness and selfish pride to enter in and that is the last thing I want to do. The purpose of discipline is to restore someone to wholeness, not ruin their life. Hebrews 12:4-17 talks about the discipline of the Lord and how He disciplines because He loves us and how even earthly parents do the same.
ReplyDeleteThe last thing I would say is that the word judge has more than just the negative connotation. Judging, in a negative sense, is to look down one's nose on others and make unfair assessments without all the facts. However, in it's normal sense, judging is making an informed decision. Every day we all makes choices (or judgments) about all sorts of things. From what to eat for lunch, which outfit to wear to even larger decisions (or judgments) such as should I take this job or that job, should I date this person or that one, etc. So, it's in what sense are we judging? What is my motive? That is the question we must ask ourselves as we judge our own actions and intentions in dealing with others. And of course, we must deal with any sin in our own lives first and foremost. Otherwise, we're probably just trying to move the spotlight off of ourselves and on to others.
I think if Jesus came into our meeting house, He would likely be met with the same "discipline" that He met with in His day and time. Why? He was radical! He didn't follow the club mentality of the Pharisees. He came to rock their world and turn everything upside down (Tear this temple down and I will rebuild it in 3 days??? Are you kidding me??)
ReplyDeleteAre we disciplining the 'radicals' among us?
Just a thought...